Friday, November 7, 2008

Things I wouldn't Touch with a 10 foot Pole!!!!!

Horse trainers are like snowflakes, no two are exactly the same. We don't all use the same equipment to get the same job done. We all have opinions on what works and what doesn't. BUT! I'm not sure that there is a person out there who would use this stuff.




5-Ring-Bit~ WOW!!! The chain link mouth piece sure looks comfy. Ooooh and imagine the leverage you could get. *eeeep*



This is called a Scourier Bit and this is how it's described. "Designed to ensure sharp turns, but can be very severe on the cheeks and jaw producing a pinching action" Geee, that's nice...




Oh-a-my-a-god! We've all seen the twisted wire bits, which IF the wire is thicker and is used properly can be a great tool. This, however, will decapitate your horse at the jaw. Ugh, just imagine if THIS Beauty fell into the mitts of a heavy handed rider.



This is a VERY high port bit with a 7 inch shank!!!!! Can you just feel the damage already!?!?!?!





*I just threw up in my mouth a little*


No comment *GULP*

I'm sorry, and WHAT type of horse requires these?!?!?!?!?

Keep in mind when searching for a bit or spurs, or any other aid for your horse to test it out on your hand first. Place the bit on the palm of your hand and pull down on it as if to simulate it in the horse's mouth. Same thing with spurs, roll them over your palm first!

There is NO reason for any "artificial aid" to make a horse suffer, bleed or be in ANY PAIN! EVER!

51 comments:

sarcastabitch said...

You do realize that spurs like that are often used on Broncs, right? Where the idea is to get them to buck? Since they are exposed to them for about 10 seconds a day, I don't imagine you're seeing gross cruelty at work.

That cathedral ported bit isn't harsh on an animal that it fits properly, nor is the chain mouthpiece. Many horses prefer a broken mouthpiece like that.

Open your mind a little.

Trainer X said...

If ANY of those bits slipped into a heavy handed rider they can be extremely damaging, and I personally wouldn't use them. Good for people who do, I won't.

ezra_pandora said...

Dang, someone needs a new life. If they don't like what you talk about, then don't read. sheesh.

WBandPOA said...

Damnnn! I would never use any of that on my horses. Thanks, but I like correct training ;)

hackney_wonder said...

I have seen that first bit used many times. In the Walking & Racking world, it is pretty common. It is a bit for those that know how to ride and use their hands.

kestrel said...

Usually I just figure that if I have to have that much iron to control a horse, why the hell would I get on?! I have seen some tools that in EXPERIENCED hands are fine, but an amateur doesn't realize how much work and how many steps it takes to build your hands and the horse's mouth. (Anybody seen what an improperly fitted snaffle can do? Ooooooh, snaffles are kind so I can jerk twice as hard..rant, rave, cuss!) All they see is that xyz winner uses that bit, so gotta have it. Yeah. Check out the quick stop bit that is advertised "even a child can stop a horse with this bit." They just leave out the part where the horse goes berserk from the pain and decides to murder the entire human race.

sarcastabitch said...

It is a bit for those that know how to ride and use their hands.

Most are. The softest bit in the world won't cure ham-handed riding.

Until you have decent hands, you should probably stick to a halter and lead rope. With someone leading from the other end.

sarcastabitch said...

Dang, someone needs a new life. If they don't like what you talk about, then don't read. sheesh.

Someone needs to demonstrate to impressionable readers that this hack doesn't have a clue what she's talking about.

Virginia's Stupid Drivers said...

I can't believe how people resort to such harsh bits. A horse is a product of their owner. A hard mouth most likely was a result of harsh handler or just an ignorant horse. However, as well all learn throughout our experience there is rarely to no problem horse, just a problem rider.

I saw someone mentioned spurs in the rodeo... those are different. They're filed/dulled and if I'm not mistake made where they don't roll. I can't remember, but those jagged edged spurs are forbidden from rodeos (if I recall right). I need to refresh my facts lol.

But back to the bits, I thought using the snaffle of a Mullen mouth pelham was bad. These bits make the pelham look like a rubber bit. *sigh*

kestrel said...

I saw the jointed at the side curbs when they first came out, and they always had a bar to keep the shanks from flapping while the horse was in motion. I guess they cheaped out on the bar, or what I dunno. Watch those bits, I've seen some evil cut up corners of mouths from poorly made ones.

Trainer X said...

Nope I'm pretty sure Ezra's right on the $$$ there!!!

CATALYST. said...

I'm agreeing with Sarcastabitch here. You obviously DON'T know what you're talking about if you're calling a double twisted wire, and (i can't believe this one) a 7' cathedral port bad. Ummm. Yeah.

I hate your blog. You're not funny, at all. Nice try at being like Fugs, but your little 'touch' doesn't work. Go learn something.

Trainer X said...

Catalyst~ You see those PRETTY pictures?!?!? READ the descriptions beside them...
*headdesk*

Trainer X said...

CATALYST. said...
I'm agreeing with Sarcastabitch here. You obviously DON'T know what you're talking about if you're calling a double twisted wire, and (i can't believe this one) a 7' cathedral port bad. Ummm. Yeah.

I never NEVER Called that bit a Cathedral port... Sarcastabitch was talking ABOUT the cathedral port, but I actually called the twisted wire, a twisted wire... How about you actually READ the Blog before you comment...

ezra_pandora said...

Sarcastabitch, Someone out to fix the world? And talking about impressionable people needing to know about someone not knowing what someone is talking about, I don't know what rodeo's you go to, but that spur shown is not acceptable and I have never seen it used in rodeo. All spurs in our rodeos are very blunt and are solidly held in place as they are used for gripping, not spuring to get them to buck. Where did you learn that? Anyone who knows a thing about rodeo knows that those things called flank straps are for. The spurs shown look sharpened to slice and do look like gross cruelty at work. Let's use them on you to get you to work.

Serendipity said...

I've used a high-port bit like the one shown on occasion, but I have soft hands. How is it bad if not abused?

Trainer X said...

Serendipity, I think that's great! They're only bad if NOT used properly... That's all, soft handed riders can use them...

GoLightly said...

I have an idea. The new best class, where you win ALL the big money prizes.
Bareback, no bridle. Lets just see how many could train for that?? They used to have bareback puissance in Britain, I wonder if they still do.
I'd put this up on TJMouse's blog, but she's had some serious family trouble, poor thing.
She gave me the idea when I watched the "Rugged Lark doing Dressage" video on her blog.
As a dog trainer, I work towards collar-less training, why not in horses?
Sure would put a crimp in their style:)
gotta go
"shudder", um, nice spurs, on the perfect leg, maybe, how many out there truly have that!!
Ouch, ouch.

kestrel said...

I've been a trainer for over 40 years now, and have got to the point that I want to choke the self righteous amateurs who watched a vidio and decided that their fantasy world really should trump years of turning out well trained horses. Oh yeah, then they want me to fix their horse, but don't want to have to really learn anything. sarcastabitch, I don't see any credentials...? You ride? Since you obviously already know everything why bother to visit a trainer's blog!?

GoLightly said...

Sorry, including Halter Horses, again, lip-chains on yearlings, on TJmouse's blog
Also gave me the idea.
Gotta GO,
Over 'n out:)

Trainer X said...

kestrel said...
I've been a trainer for over 40 years now, and have got to the point that I want to choke the self righteous amateurs who watched a vidio and decided that their fantasy world really should trump years of turning out well trained horses. Oh yeah, then they want me to fix their horse, but don't want to have to really learn anything. sarcastabitch, I don't see any credentials...? You ride? Since you obviously already know everything why bother to visit a trainer's blog!?


LMAO!!!!! AMEN KESTREL!!!

I get so tired of fixing other people's messes because they're "the best thing since sliced bread at riding and working with horses"! *cringe*

kestrel said...

Also, I'm seeing more incredibly dangerous horses these days. Too many people who have trained a grand total of exactly zero horses, between RFD TV and cult vidio training schemes somehow think they're qualified. The horse is started one way, started another trainer's way, by the time I get them they're a basket case and mad at the world. (But of course it's the breeder's fault or the horse's fault, never the owner's fault.) Or worse yet, pet horsie is spoiled rotten, mean and entitled just like it's owner. I get stuck trying to figure out how to fix the mess without getting killed in the process.
It's pretty easy to train a horse that hasn't been messed up, even if they're older. (Caveat: as long as they're sound mentally and physically.) Natural instincts are still intact and you have a pretty good idea of what they'll do.
Where I come from you are not a trainer until you've actually TRAINED horses. Preferably more than one....and no, being able to lead them around and do a few tricks doesn't count. You EVER gonna ride that? It has been 3 years now... Snork!

Havocec said...

I've never seen the top bit before. What do you do with it? Blow bubbles?

The rest I've seen. But in expert hands.

One atrocious bit that is missing is the bicycle chain mouthpiece. Side pieces are irrelevant with this monster but are usually of the loose ring variety.

kestrel said...

As children we were never allowed to ride in anything but short shanked low port curbs, with loose leather chin staps. All of our horses neckreined. A snaffle was considered too harsh, because it can teepee if your hands are wrong and the horse has a narrow lower jaw, so kids were not considered steady enough to maintain correct hand position. Any old cowboy standing nearby was encouraged to yank you off your horse and spank your sorry butt if you were mean to your horse!
ANY of the gear on the page would get you thrown out of the Omoksee, after you'd been publicly humiliated.
The bit wall in a tack store gives me hives. You can't hardly find decent bit. Torture devices, so add a tie down, so add spurs, so add a quirt...aaaargh! Then overhorse the kid so they can wiiin, except sometimes they get hurt.

searching_for_something said...

Just stumbled onto this blog and gotta say tis great!
I wouldnt ever use spurs, but know a few people who do. I have never seen anything like the ones pictured tho. Like tiny little daggers!

GoLightly said...

Sarcasta
"You do realize that spurs like that are often used on Broncs, right? Where the idea is to get them to buck? Since they are exposed to them for about 10 seconds a day, I don't imagine you're seeing gross cruelty at work."
You do know that they use a bucking strap, to get them to buck, don't you? Do ya think having spears driven into their sides, really makes them buck? Try it, on yourself. Oh, and it's 8 seconds, not 10, or were you speaking in terms of how long you've stayed on, wearing such an atrocity? Maybe stick to watching rodeo, a bit more closely. Sounds like your speed.

Sarcasta
"Someone needs to demonstrate to impressionable readers that this hack doesn't have a clue what she's talking about."
Are you speaking about yourself?

Sheesh, no response to saddle-less, bridle-less classes. Why am I not surprised?
And halter-less halter horses would really increase the need for good groundwork training...
Like, as in, good training.

Good hands, my arse. Those bits were designed for bad-handed riders. The nastier the better, when the horse is saying "OMFG, get away from my face!!!!!"

kestrel said...

Love the no gear approach! As long as your horse is in an enclosed area....some horses will quickly figure out that no gear means no control and could kill you out on a trail.

GoLightly said...

Kestrel :)
Yes, of course!
I'm just talking indoors or fenced. Would be entertaining, wouldn't it?

Classes would need to offer HUGE money, cause no-one would go, except oh, maybe mugwump, TrojanMouse, kestrel et.al. Minimum class human age of 30. Sorry, you three DO sound older. Not old, OldER.
Oh, I'm going to go make up some programs:)

Call it the "true masters" class.

And yes, bits like that belong in the hands of masters. Very few of THEM around, too bad for the horses..
Those spurs are for sadists.

kestrel said...

Gotta admit that I am old, and loving it! More than 40 year of playing the game counts, and a real good theory sure can change when the ground has rocks! Of course, times sure have changed. When I was young ignorance was acceptable as long as you were trying to learn, but it was still considered fun to slap stupid, and we had enough master horse people around to make the decision!!!

GoLightly said...

Oh, I should have mentioned, plain leather neck strap only allowed. Then, out to the field we goooo! Okay, okay, the field can be FENCED. With electric:)

TX, where RU?? Did you forget your tin-foil?
Did you get triffided? Hope you're OK...

Hear, hear, Kestrel Those days are long, far gone..
Have a great weekend all..

Back to work

wolfandterriers said...

Trainer X...

Like the blog, as I am totally in the need of kick-ass to stand up and call out the b.s. that I see. I've spent some time volunteering for shows and I go through a variety of pills to kill my jaw pain from grinding my teeth for hours!

And I'm SO for the bridle less thing. I ride dressage FOR mounted archery, and I love the psychos that I've retrained. I don't have a chazillion, as I am a full time student and work my ass off to support my one pony, but I enjoy the slow pursuit of perfection, and generally shut my mouth and drink beer when people don't understand/ridicule/b.s. my way of thinking...which I like and get good results with.

***back to Neuroscience, damnit***

wolfandterriers said...

Before I quit, one thought on the horses becoming more dangerous...I totally second that. The definition of good hands and the understanding of appropriate tack has gone away. I'm so HAPPY I am NOT ever going to be a horse professional that has to fix this kind of crap. Hallelujah!!!!!!

Jen Sider - The First Dog said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZIYM76mYag or Youtube search Stacey Westfall; bridle-less winning reining run;

note in the saddled ride; she does wear spurs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7v8Ck1crg

saddle-less/bridle-less; so it has been done; spurs on this run too no neck strap
Slides, spins, flying lead changes; at a gallop; think she's got it?!
She's won;
2003 the National Reining Horse Association Freestyle reining competition
She has gone undefeated for two years straight in major freestyle reining competitions and in 2006 she won twice while riding bridle-less AND bareback.

2007;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGRVhHN60wI

hackney_wonder said...

Havocec said...
I've never seen the top bit before. What do you do with it? Blow bubbles?

*** This bit, in most cases, is used for the purposes of setting heads in the Walking and Racking world. Most times, it is seen on stock that is in the stage just before show-ring ready and working horses at home trying to perfect a little something like where the head is held or where their nose is. It isn't used on green horses, the horse should already know how to ride correctly and respond to the bit.

Depending on where the reins are hooked in the rings and how they are held makes the horse hold his differently when working. Hands held high & wide may result in the head being held higher with the nose brought in, where when the hands are held low and together may result in a rolled over, between the knees look. You just never know until you are working and what the horse likes.

Instead of having the same mouthpiece on five different bits of different lengths, one bit with the same mouth with rings down the shank will replace that.

Education, education, education. A blunt butt snaffle can result in the same abuse as this bit can in the wrong hands. You can only say something is abusive if it is being used in an abusive manner. Just because you see it and think that is does not make it so.

Also for the chain snaffle comment, it is a hideous looking bit but only bad in the wrong hands and with a person that has no clue.

Starr said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Monica said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ousting_assholes said...

Speaking people that ruin mouths, here's you one:

http://www.photography.smugmug.com/gallery/5737798_QccMW#354394563_TfJGy

Not sure if it will bring the proof up or not, but if not, look for proof numbers DSC_0498, & 0503. You can really see it in those even with PROOF stamped over it. In proof 509, you can see it running down the shank if you look close enough.

This is supposed to be a "trainer". And yes... you are seeing it right. The horse he is riding IN the show ring IS bleeding from the mouth. And to beat it all, this was a junior horse class (aka 4 year old and under).

Please note, this is a Racking Horse Association with no DQP or Govt. that ever shows up to top it off. Oh and if you wonder why nothing was said to him, it was probably because he was one of their world show judges AND on the judges panel. I will let you draw your own conclusions as I have mine.

And awesome trainer even has his own fantastic website:

http://www.mountainviewstables-northga.com/

If the proof links don't work, please let me know and I will try to get it fixed.

GoLightly said...

Ousting A-Holes..
OMFG.
Yes, what kind hands that demonstrates. Yes, what a lovely head-set.
Oh, My God.
The blood is sooooo attractive..
Wow. Thanks for the pics. Just, wow.

Hey, Sarcasta?? Chain Mouthpieces??
Are you a justabit of a sadist, in real life?

Havocec said...

Thanks hackney...

I don't see many walking horses or gaited horses around here. The only thing close to the first bit I've seen is an elevator bit. The owner of said bit didn't appreciate the "bubble" remark but I thought is was pretty funny.

kestrel said...

If you need torture tools to get your horse to look like the breed picture something is truly wrong. Almost all performance breeds started out with horses doing their jobs naturally.
Seen some of those shoes lately? Leg chains legal now? Out of balance show performances? The general public doesn't know the difference between spirit and terror, so abused horses actually place...WTF?
Love Stacey Westfall, her horse performs brilliantly, and is licking it's lips and soft. I bought her entire training vidio series and picked up some really good tips for $156.00. That is obviously a horse that loves it's trainer.
Spurs, like bits, can either communicate or torture. Once again, never use a tool that you don't understand. Put that bit under your own chin and have a friend drive you around....then make your decision. Either that or put the bit inside you elbow....and pull on those shanks. Pound those spurs along your own ribs, or better yet have someone else do it. mwaaahaha....

Trainer X said...

Ousting A-Holes~~~ HOLY SHITBALLS!!! I can not believe that the picture so CLEARLY shows that horse bleeding!!!!! UGH!!!

Havocec said...

I meant real bicycle chains btw. Homemade, all edges and used for a bit. Nasty.

hackney_wonder said...

If you are talking about this bit:

http://www.4showhorsetack.com/product_info.php?cPath=42_52&products_id=827&osCsid=a03d2f833ff409950a89da54c6955388

I know it is scary looking but fairly common again in the Gaited/Saddlebred world. I actually have one on my full bridle. I don't work my gelding in it on a regular basis but he does show in it. Not as bad of bit as you would think in the correct hands. I actually know of a LOT of horses that drive in this bit.

If you want to see a fun bit that will give you something to talk about, give this one a run:

http://www.horsetackinternational.com/Mule-Bit.html?currency=USD

I have seen this one a lot! Lots of times on pairs and teams and very, very common for old timers and wagon trains.

Hands, hands, hands, and lots of experience. I have found (as the majority of us have) that lots of folks want to run out get a certain kind of horse and try to make something of it that it isn't or try to ride it like it is. I am sorry but no matter the breed or discipline, not every horse is cut out to make a performance horse at whatever its' breed is. You figure that in the Walking Horses, Racking Horses, Saddlebreds, and Hackneys that roughly only 5% of each of the above-named breeds has what it takes to make what is asked of them in the showring.

I can't answer on any other breeds. Maybe someone else can. I have been out of the QH (cutting & reining) loop for over 15 years now and never was really in to dressage, eventing, jumping, etc. Watch it on tv every now and again, so I won't even claim to know a thing about those horses. I can safely say that I did try a few jumping lessons when I was on the move from QHs to try something but it was something that I was not a fan of.

In general, newcomers and people in general wanting horses really should take the time to learn about what they are wanting to step into. I just find it sad that many of your average horse people can't distinguish Saddleseat from Huntseat, or (even worse) think that all the styles are the same. I have seen some that think Dressage & Saddleseat are the same things. Most of them don't even realize the saddles are different.

Knowledge is power and we have been looking at a very large lots of powerless people here lately.

GoLightly said...

JenSider

Thank YOU!!
Waaay cool. Now that is a trainer. That is a rider.

I get that masters can use these instruments of cruelty, and not hurt the horse. But there are FAR too many "masters in their own tiny minds" out there, hurting horses.

When I read "my horse has no brakes", and the answer is "get a harsher bit", I want to screammmmmm.
Best way to handle a run-away, no brakes???
Yeah, put razors in their mouths, that will make them enjoy life more...

I've bookmarked that link, thanks again.

CATALYST. said...

HAVE YOU GUYS EVER WATCHED A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW BEFORE. jesus christ they have BRIDLELESS CLASSES!!

Trainer X said...

CATALYST. said...
HAVE YOU GUYS EVER WATCHED A WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP SHOW BEFORE. jesus christ they have BRIDLELESS CLASSES!!


GOD DAMN Psycho!! Calm the hell down! WE KNOW! We are just CHATTING!! Having fun, making suggestions to each other. Take your FUCKING PROZAC!

Havocec said...

Thanks for the link
hackney...that's the idea but this one was homemade.

At least the person who had it was someone who knew when to use it. He never let anyone else use the bit.

I need better hands (aka better leg and seat control) before I move out of snaffles.

GoLightly said...

OK. CATALYST. Hey, I didn't know.
SHIT, I'M FROM THE ENGLISH SIDE OF THINGS. Tell me, is it the biggest money class? Anyone? Is it the most highly awarded class?
Just asking, Ok?
And horses traveling around with their heads' between their knees, will/must have serious physical issues. Tails that look like dead animals stuck to their back-ends. Gross me out. Those peanut pusher riders are crazy:)
That kinda "WesternPleasure" is just wrong. Sorry. It's much more Western Painful. That they're being bred to travel that way, is also all wrong. Get a grip on the horses' anatomy, before you breed/fuck with his basic Structure!!
lame, lame, lame...
"blows kisses"
Thanks TX

whisper_the_wind said...

I have seen horses lose part of their tongues with twisted wire bits, and know of several with tears to their faces.

When I was a kid, we would twist wire up to make a wood saw. Imagine what that does to oral tissue.

Cathedral ports in the incorrect hands can penetrate the palate. In the correct hands, fine...I know of VERY few true horsemen capable of handling a cathedral port, takes too long to train the horse BEFORE introducing the bit.

hackney_wonder said...

I knew a trainer that did cutting & reining horses that swore by cathedral type bits. He put out some really nice horses.

I don't even know if he is still alive or not but I really missed him after he moved. If anyone here knows him & knows where he maybe, please let me know. His name was Abe Wilson & he had a son that was a jockey named Ryan.

kestrel said...

I've always made all of my students go back to bareback equitation. (I've got a great real suede saddlepad to help in the beginning...chaps for your butt!) In my opinion, if you can't keep your balance bareback well enough to use your legs and hands as cues, you have no business using a harsh bit. Do you know how many riders are so used to bracing in the leather that they have absolutely no idea of how a horse really moves?! Oh, and then we get into the saddles designed for those riders...grrrrfr